Halo Sports & Entertainment CEO Gillian Zucker spends her days figuring out how to ‘make people’s jaws drop’

Listen to the episode or read the transcript below.

Gillian Zucker: That’s the most amazing thing about this building. I describe it in Steve Ballmer terms, which is: the building itself is a piece of hardware, and the way that it operates inside is a piece of software, and it changes literally every day. So, you know, this entire summer, we’re working on, how do we make people’s jaws drop when they come in and they see this Halo board? Which they saw all out of last year, but it does things that they could have never imagined.

Diane Brady: Hi, everyone. Welcome to Leadership Next. The podcast about the people…

Kristin Stoller: …and trends…

Brady: …that are shaping the future of business. I’m Diane Brady.

Stoller: And I’m Kristin Stoller.

Stoller: Yes, you and I met her at our COO Summit in Scottsdale, Arizona…

Brady: …sweltering Scottsdale…

Stoller: …very hot. June day, 107 degrees. She spoke with me on stage before we did this interview, in front of our attendees…

Brady: …rubber chicken in hand…

Stoller: …yeah that was—in the green room, she came up to me and said, “Can I bring this rubber chicken that makes noise on stage? And can I also bring this drink cup that is a sound maker.” I cleared it with our sound people, and they said, “Yes,” so…

Brady: …that was a loud cup. And I have to say this is one of the most tech savvy organizations. Of course, Ballmer, being the former CEO of Microsoft, you would expect no less. But incredible what that stadium has.

Stoller: Yeah it’s really cool. The tech is amazing. I’m sure having a boss like Steve Ballmer is a little intimidating. She beat out 30 candidates, I might add, for that role. But on stage, she was telling me–and what I thought was a little big brother creepy, but I also could see the appeal–is they can track the decibel level of every fan down to the individual seat. So if you’re screaming the loudest Diane, you might get a seat upgrade. You might get a freebie. Who knows

Brady: And you thought facial recognition was cool? Yes, now they can track your voice. I think, look, I think it’s incredible what they’re doing. It’s “The Wall,” as they call it. We’ll hear more about that from her. I will say that Ceylan, who many of the viewers and listeners don’t get to see every week, but is the brains behind this—she’s working the camera as we speak. She and I went to a game at Madison Square Garden, very different, of course, in terms of where its technology is, and it was a game that the Clippers won. So the experience of being in a Knicks-heavy stadium with Zucker, yeah, I will talk to her about that as, Oh, please,

Stoller: Yeah, as a Mets season ticket holder, we need all of the insights on what we can do with our stadiums here in New York.

Brady: What I enjoyed about our conversation in Scottsdale, I have to say, is, I think the way that she views sports as a business, clearly, it is a huge business right now, but the way that they talk about customer engagement, the way they’re using data and AI, I mean, there really are lessons far beyond the world of sports, and often, I have to admit my bias, I’ve often thought of sports teams as a vanity project for billionaires. This felt like a very professional organization, and one that is really positioning itself for the future.

Stoller: And doing a lot of experiments. They’re tracking what food items are selling at each game to make real time decisions about what fans actually want.

Brady: Hot dogs!

Stoller: Yes.

Brady: Great discussion, lots to talk about, and you’ll hear it all when you come right back.

Brady: As technology and AI continue to reshape industries, hiring for technical skills remains important, but fostering creativity, curiosity and empathy are also essential for organizations to remain competitive and resilient. We’re here with Jason Girzadas, the CEO of Deloitte US, and the sponsor of this podcast. Jason, always good to see you. 

Brady: Thanks for joining us. 

Jason Girzadas: Thank you for having me. Diane.

Brady: So Jason, how can organizations balance the development of human skills and technical skills to drive innovation?

Girzadas: It is a tech-driven world, but still, human skills matter. And I think it comes down to being intentional for leading organizations to still invest and have very directed strategies around building human skills, curiosity, imagination, and how to team. These are still critical ingredients to creating differentiation and competitive advantage. At Deloitte, we’ve committed to building those skills and have, over time, evolved our programming.

Stoller: Jason, could you say, at Deloitte, what role really does apprenticeship play in fostering a culture of continuous learning and development? Girzadas

Jason Girzadas: It’s interesting. There was some, I think, time when people thought that apprenticeship and mentorship could maybe be digitized or entirely done remotely. And I think what we’ve learned is that that’s not the case, that apprenticeship and mentorship need to continue to be a formal part of our culture, a part of our learning environment.

Stoller: Absolutely. Well, great insights, Jason, thank you so much for sharing them with us.

Jason Girzadas: Thank you, Kristin.

Stoller: So we are here at the Fortune COO Summit in Scottsdale, Arizona, and Gillian you yourself are a master operator in your job at the LA Clippers. So I want to start with the unique relationship that you have with your billionaire boss, Clippers owner Steve Ballmer. Why did you want to take on this job and walk us through your interview process with him?

Zucker: Well, I mean, there were a number of things about it that were attractive, but you have to remember this was back in 2014, before he was widely known by everyone as the best owner in all of sports. But that’s what I saw him as. I’ve worked in the sports industry my entire career, and here’s this person who has taken on the ownership of a team for all the right reasons: because they love the game, because they’re a fan themselves. And I think that when you have an owner who approaches the game in that way, they’re not there for recognition, they’re not there to lift their profile, they’re not there to befriend athletes. They’re not necessarily even there for the return on investment, although there is a good one, I think, with these franchises. But he was really there because he loves the game, and he wanted to provide an environment for other people who love the game. And he was fiercely competitive. So all those things made the job really attractive to me.

Brady: You know, one of the things that intrigues me is (that) you have worked across different sports, NASCAR, so like, what is it about sport itself that attracted you initially?

Zucker: I think this goes all the way back to when I was a child, you know…

Brady: …let’s go back to when you were a child, Gillian…

Zucker: …I mean, you know, the experience that I had with my dad. He was a passionate New York Giants football fan, and we used to watch the games on the couch every weekend, and that became a special time that I shared with him. My first live sporting event that I went to was a New York Yankees game with him, and I remember him preparing me for the game. I had to bring my glove because it was possible that somebody would hit a foul ball, and then I could catch it. Now, where we were sitting, in like the very top tier of left field, it was not possible that I would have ever caught a ball. And yet I sat there the whole game thinking that the next one was coming at me. And I remember after the seventh inning stretch, him saying, “Okay, are you ready to go?” And I’m like, “No, I haven’t caught the ball yet,” you know, but this idea that you could be there and have that kind of connection with someone else has always been what’s attracted me to sports is providing that experience for others.

Stoller: So walk us through your career, then. Where do you want to start? I know you come from a lot of different backgrounds before you got into basketball. Take us through that.

Zucker: Well, I’ve been doing this a long time. So back when I was a senior in college at Hamilton College, I went to a small liberal arts college in upstate New York, which I think was really formative about my career, taught me to think, taught me to speak passionately about things I care about, and to present ideas that are important to me. And all of those things are things that I use every day in this industry. But it was…

Brady: …that’s Hamilton’s reputation, by the way, as sort of a breeding ground for leaders.

Zucker: It’s a wonderful place, and when I was a senior there, there was a career class that asked you to kind of talk about your strengths. And I was a writing major, so what kind of popped out was, oh, you might be interested in being a sports journalist. And I thought, Okay, this is great. So they asked you to find someone who had that career, spend half a day with them, write a one page paper on it, and that was essentially the assignment. So I did that, and the person was covering the minor league hockey game in Utica, and I remember going there and watching the person who was the head of operations at this tiny arena that held 4000 people, and realizing that I didn’t want to be a sports journalist. I wanted to do what he did. He was throwing frisbees into the crowd, and he was pulling a name out of a hat, and people were cheering. And so when he came up to the press box, I said, What is it that you do here? And he said he was the director of operations. And I asked what that meant. And he took me to the last row of the press box, and he had me type into this machine the words on your feet. And he said, “Okay, hit this button when I tell you to,” and I hit the button, and everybody in the arena stood up and cheered, and he said, “That’s what I do here.” And I thought, This is it. This is my career. This is what I’m going to do with my life. And, you know, it took a long time for me to get there. I didn’t take, you know, the direct path. I took a circuitous route through lots of different sports and lots of different types of roles, but ultimately it’s what prepared me for this role with the Clippers.

Brady: Was there a pivot point for you? I mean, I love that analogy of just, you know, on your feet, but what was it when you realized—an experience that took you to the next level, that positioned you to be in the role you’re in now?

Zucker: I think that oftentimes people don’t approach their career path with the same sort of planning and strategy as they do their job assignment. So I really thought about it in that way. What is it that I need to do, present, learn, if I actually want to run a franchise one day? And so I started in PR, because that was my strength, was writing and communication and pitching stories and being persuasive. So I started there, and then parlayed that into sales. Really, really important in the industry. I mean, everybody who you know who has any kind of leadership roles in these typically comes from a sales background, and then I needed to understand operations. So I actually took a role in minor league baseball, where I ran stadium operations and concessions and really learned what that was all about, and then slowly tried to fill in the places where I didn’t have as much experience, whether it was licensing, broadcast, etc, and develop leadership skills along the way.

Stoller: Was there a lot of competition for your current role? And how did you stand out, if so?

Zucker: There was a ton. I mean, I don’t know the full details of all of it. I’ve heard all kinds of crazy numbers, you know, like more than 30 people, you know, had some sort of interface with Steve Ballmer as he was filling this role. And I’d hear little pieces and parts along the way, because I had this incredible network of people that was out there. And all I kept telling all of them was, if you run into Steve Ballmer, just say my name and tell him that he needs to meet me. You don’t have to say whether you think I’d be good in the role or anything else, like, I just want an opportunity to sit down with him because I’m convinced that if he met me, he would hire me. And I’m convinced that if he hired me, that I could do a really great job for him.

Brady: You know what I love about that is most of us are taught, and I’m not going to put a gender lens on it, but not to necessarily ask other people to promote on our behalf. And I do think that’s very powerful, especially in roles where you might be one of the first going into that role, if you’re not necessarily central casting. Do you feel like, if you were to give advice to other people who want to follow—who want to basically run a franchise, besides that, what would be some of the other things that you think were transformative?

Zucker: I mean, I think networking is supremely important, and I don’t think people even realize when it starts. I mean, it’s with every single role that you have. And you know, it’s hard when you’re trying to stand out, or you’re being competitive and you want to finish first, whether it’s in sales or anything else that gets you noticed, like, you know, you need to find a way to still connect with the people around you, because in an industry like this, that’s somebody who potentially, you may be working for, who may be working for you someday, you may be working alongside, or might get asked what kind of person you are. So I think, you know, that’s an important piece. I think having high integrity, you know, certainly along the way, you want to continue to maintain that, because you’re going to run into the same people over and over again. And I think that’s true for for almost any industry with this role there were, there was an incredible recruiting team, these two women who were with James & Co., who I think were really open to non-traditional candidates for this role, and they were tremendous help in making sure that I got an opportunity to be heard.

Stoller: Going along with Diane’s point. I also feel like once you get the job, it can be hard to assert yourself too, especially when you have a very high profile boss. Were there ever any times you’ve disagreed with Steve? And do you have an example of kind of how you worked to overcome that?

Zucker: We disagree all the time, actually, and I think that’s when he’s at his best. You know, I can remember the first time that we were talking about something, and we had this conversation about—people ask if he’s ever yelled at me. I’m like, I don’t think he’s ever yelled at me. I cannot think of a single time.

Brady: Is that because of his Microsoft reputation?

Zucker: I don’t think people change that much. I just think he’s loud and he’s passionate. And I think that that can be mistaken, but I just, I don’t know, for me, I just notice when he cares about something, and I think, wow, I need to pay more attention, or I’m not understanding where he’s going, and so I try to listen more intently. But I find he’s exactly the same way. And sometimes he’ll say something, and I’ll respond with a difference of opinion, and he’ll say it again, and often he says it louder, and then, you know, I’ll stop and say to him, “I do understand your position. I just don’t agree with it.” And at that point, every single time I’ve ever said something like that, he leans in, and he gets this look on his face like he’s an excited child, and says, “Tell me more.” Very curious about understanding why, and how, you know you’re thinking about something, why it’s different. Should he be thinking about it differently? Should he be pushing me to be thinking about it differently? The time that I get to spend with him one on one, is the best part of my month. I always take away something that is incredible, that I think makes me better in my role and a better person.

Brady: So I want to talk about what you’ve done with the franchise writ large. I mean, take us back to what it was like when you first got there, right? It was a very different then, there was no Intuit Dome, all kinds of—but what was the state of operations when you came into this role?

Zucker: I think it was pretty rough going. I mean this, this was a group of people who–really, really great people, by the way–who worked really hard, but, who had a different mission, and that mission was to deliver a certain bottom line to ownership every month, and you could do whatever you wanted so long as you delivered that. So there wasn’t a lot of bold thinking. And I wasn’t there. So I don’t know what the, you know, propensity was for risk taking, but I think it was actually really, really small. And Steve is exactly the opposite. He is like, hey, go for it. Try things, you know, be smart about it, but if you realize something’s not working, then you pivot. It’s not that, you know, if you fail, you’re in some massive amount of trouble. And if you don’t think boldly and try things that are hard, you can’t really have big wins. And he understands that. So the organization changed pretty dramatically. I think the fans have as well. You know, when we did our first kind of marketing research, and we asked people why—Clippers fans, like we just wanted to know what makes up Clippers fans, and there were really only three reasons. It was because the tickets are cheap, because I can’t cheer for the Lakers. I came from another place, or for whatever reason they were Lakers, or because they were coming to watch the opposing team play. They were fans of the NBA, and they were, you know, coming sounds like a low bar. So the number of people who actually like counted themselves and raised their hands and said, “Oh no, I’m excited to be a Clippers fan.” But over time, you started hearing more and more about the reason why people thought of themselves as Clippers fans was because, you know, this was a team that had gone through adversity. It was loyal. It was people who were hardcore, it was people who were dedicated. They’d been through a lot, and there was a clear direction on where they were going, and they had something to prove. And I think that as we continued through the course of the last 10 years that this sense of pride has just accelerated in an incredible way. And you know now, I mean, I was saying during the playoffs, first round of the playoffs, we have a game where we have 2000 people who came to Intuit Dome just to watch the game on TV together. You know, that is something that would have been unfathomable 10 years ago.

Stoller: Well, speaking of dedicated, you, I read or you told me that you personally visited over 100 arenas globally to research the best practices when building Intuit Dome. Tell us about the wildest thing you saw or you did when, when you were doing that research.

Zucker: Oh, I mean, we visited all kinds of places, and I would say some were arenas and some were other entertainment facilities. I remember going to a zoo in the Philippines and holding one of those giant yellow snakes around my neck.It was like a Britney Spears moment for me. But, you know, it was kind of this idea of everywhere you went, you saw things that were inspired. It was things that they did to engage whatever their audience was. I remember spending some time in Asia and seeing the way that they utilize luck. It’s like sort of this way that inspires people. And I came back and I said, “There’s got to be a way that we can utilize that in sporting events,” where you are doing something that causes your fan base to take an action that would make, you know, the team more lucky.

Brady: What an interesting—it sounds more like an Eat, Pray, Love experience than doing due diligence on stadiums. What, what were you looking for in this quest of going other places?

Zucker: You know, I think that all of these places kind of take on the personality of whoever’s funding them. There’s somebody who’s leading the charge. And when you go there, you see that. You see what their motivations were and what they were trying to accomplish, and the different tools that they use in trying to accomplish it. So each of these buildings has a personality unto itself. I think baseball does it really well. You go to baseball parks, and a lot of people like to visit every baseball park in the country because they just have such a unique personality and point of view. And that’s really what Steve wanted for Intuit Dome. He didn’t want people to walk in and say, “Oh, I’ve been in this building before.” And even the name of the facility—I mean, the reason it’s called Intuit Dome and not arena or something more, you know, consistent with what you’d see at other places is because we wanted to stand out. This is a facility in Inglewood, California that is the home of the Clippers, and it is a must attend place. And we set out to answer a question that he asked me at the beginning of the exercise, which was, where is the best arena in the world? Take me there, and let’s just go see that. What is it? Well, my answer to him was, for what? So is it for the player experience? Is it for the media experience? Is it for the person who sits in the first row? Is it for the person who sits in the very last row? Is it for the food? Is it for hospitality? Is it for sponsors? So when you answer the “for what” question, you get a lot of different answers. And so we went to about seven different facilities together and had that experience of what people do well in a variety of different places. And afterwards, I think he had a really good sense of what he wanted to see and what he wanted the building to stand for. And at the—and he said, you know, what I would love is, when we’re done with this, that we’re the definitive answer to that question.

Stoller: It’s a good answer. I mean, I admit I only go to stadiums for the food. I don’t know about you. Diane.

Brady: Well, I think what’s interesting is that, are any of those at odds with each other, right? So can you be all of the above? I do think Intuit Dome is an interesting, emblematic, you know, shift for the Clippers and just for the company writ large. What is it that you did there that you think distinguishes it? Obviously, the technology, “The Wall,” people know about that, but anything else that you think really captures the potential of what a stadium can be?

Zucker: I think a few things, I mean. Number one, we set out to solve the problem of lines. You know, if you could come to a sporting event or a concert and have no lines? I mean, that’s sort of unbelievable. I mean, is that even possible? And that’s what we set out to do, either through architecture or technology, where could we take the friction out of everything that you experience, whether it’s getting your ticket taken, waiting in line for the restroom, going to get a hot dog or a Coke. All of those things are things where you’re used to missing a quarter of the game. You’re used to missing several songs in a concert. So can we make that something where, boom, boom, boom, you can be back in your seat. And that’s where frictionless technology and building a building that’s 100% frictionless, you have to do that from the beginning. You know, you said you go to facilities for food. I do too, like I want—you know, it’s a place to indulge and you want it to be great. Well, what we learned before we even put a shovel in the ground is that one of the things that makes food in a facility great is the proximity of where you serve it to the kitchens. So, you know, I remember Steve asking this question, like, how do you solve that most of these facilities have one or two kitchens in the whole thing. And you know, the person who was advising us–great, great consultants from Levy Restaurants–said the only way you could do that was if, you know, you built a kitchen at every single concession stand. And no one would ever do that. Steve was like, “How many is it?” They’re like, oh, like, it beats 30 or something. So we have 31 kitchens at Intuit Dome for exactly that reason. It’s so that when you get the pizza, it was just made right behind you.

Stoller: How do you—I want to hear about how you use the fan data? I think I’d love for you to talk about the rewards experience, and also, just like, for what you put on your menus, for what you offer in the stadium as well.

Zucker: Yeah, I mean, data is informing everything, and we’re getting better and better at using it. So when we first opened the facility, really, it was about, let’s get this tech working right. And now we’re at this place where we’re saying, “Okay, let’s use the tech to make the experience better for people.” So we’ve already tackled this idea of greatly reducing, if not eliminating, lines, and now it’s about, okay, what can we do to personalize the experience for you in the same way that, say, Amazon does for you. So we have these decibel readers that are in the catwalk of the building, and they enable us to know how loud someone is cheering down to a single seat, so we actually can identify the loudest fan in the building, and we can reward those people. So we’re encouraging the behaviors we want. We know what time you arrive. In LA, people arrive fashionably late. We want people to think about Intuit Dome as a place you arrive fashionably early. So how do we get that? Well, we reward people for showing up early, sometimes with free popcorn, sometimes with other surprises and delight, sometimes with a seat location. You get a better seat location if you show up first. So that’s how we’re utilizing technology and data, and we use it for absolutely everything. Steve really wanted a grilled chicken caesar salad on the menu. We said, “Sure, no problem.” We put it on the menu. Fans, they did not buy it. They said, “Nope.” Steve gets a personal

Brady: You know, one of the things we haven’t mentioned, we have facial recognition technology in my building, and I love it, but if you say it to people, they’re like, “No, that’s creepy.” So it’s almost when you’re pioneering a new technology, you have to actually get people over the hurdle of understanding what it is and what it can be. And obviously, when you talk about frictionless, that’s facial recognition technology. Was that hard to get people to embrace, given that a lot of stadiums weren’t doing it at that time?

Zucker: It’s important to note that it’s entirely opt-in. And when we first started this, no one was doing it. So we did a lot of research on it, and we talked to people about, how do you feel about facial recognition, and people were absolutely concerned about it. You know that was—it came up again and again and again. But when we asked them how they felt about Clear, the technology at the airport, they love it. They love it. They trust it. They feel very comfortable with their phone. They love that, right? We asked them about the Apple face ID, no problem. Love it. So what we learned was language really matters in this and having optionality—you don’t have to do it. We don’t force people to. You can sign up. So our goal in the first year was if we could get to somewhere, I think 38% was our initial goal, if we could get people to sign up for what we call Game Face ID, which means you take a selfie of yourself and literally, you put your phone in your pocket, it’s your ticket. So it’s your entrance into the building. You just walk right in. You go into any concession stand. You know, grab your double cheeseburger, you grab your pretzel, you grab your Coca-Cola, you walk right out the door. In fact, because of our relationship that we have with Clear we’re even able to determine someone’s age, so we can determine if you’re old enough to be able to pick up a beer, and we know that you’re allowed to have two in the state of California, so that enables you to just walk out with that as well. And if you’re not old enough, we know that, so it won’t allow you to leave. So all of these things are things that make the experience better. And what we found is that after we taught people about it and explained to them how it worked, and told them that we were partners with Apple and Clear and others who do this really well, and they trusted we weren’t building it ourselves, there were a lot of people who chose to try it out. So we were at about 70% of people who opted in to Game Face ID as they came into the facility, and then we started noticing by the time they left, it was more like 85%, so we’re really seeing a very high uptick in people who are interested in that, because it just changes the experience for the better.

Stoller: I think, you know, you’re also competing with people who might just want to stay at home and not even go to a stadium at all, as opposed to getting there early. Is there one thing that you think convinces people to physically go into a stadium versus, you know, laying on their couch, being lazy, dealing with inertia?

Zucker: I think there is so much that we do at this facility that’s special that you can’t experience on TV. It looks cool on TV, but it is nothing like it when you see it live, you know. And a few things that are key to that. Number one is our Halo scoreboard. So we have this two sided, you know, almost acre of LED scoreboard, and it’s spectacular, and because it’s such high definition, and because we have so much space on it, we can do all kinds of things with it to engage the crowd. So literally, we have, you know, sort of 3D graphics of our players. We have interactive elements that are, you know, just sort of unbelievable. We ran power to all of our seats in the building and in the arm rests, we have a game controller, and you literally can interact with what’s going on on the board because of that game controller. So we’ve created all these games that make the experience unique. It’s quite special, I think. And then other things that are way much lower tech, right? So we went out and we collected the jerseys of every high school basketball team, girls and boys in the state of California. It’s over 1,500 jerseys, and we frame them when we put them up on “The Wall.” So if you’ve played basketball anywhere in California, you can come into Intuit Dome, and you can see a piece of yourself there.

Brady: You know, one of the things—we’re talking a lot about the Clippers, but let’s talk about Halo as a broader organization. Talk about the breadth of what you do.

Zucker: So you know, it’s kind of interesting, because when we set out to build Intuit Dome, we ran into a couple of problems with a neighbor down the road who owned a building that has traditionally hosted a lot of music in the Los Angeles area, The Forum, and during COVID, we were able to reach an agreement with them where we purchased this building from them and renamed it along with Kia, the Kia Forum, and have been operating it since. So it’s a spectacular concert venue. I mean, I think to many people, it’d be hard to argue it’s got the best sound of, you know, of any building in America, I would say, even the world. It’s really a tremendous place to see a concert, and it gave us time to learn a lot about the music industry. So we started learning it in this very special place. And we learned a lot about acoustics, which allowed us to take all of that learning and put it into Intuit Dome. And so I’d say Intuit Dome gives it a pretty good run for its money when it comes to a place where, you know, you can have events that are outside of basketball.

Brady: Also women’s sports for a second, because that’s an area other than soccer. I’m trying to think of the uptick in women’s sports, and if you see the evolution of that, can you give us some sense of what you’ve done in that realm? Because I think that’s very powerful, and we’re hearing more about it, but I’m not sure exactly if it’s resonating as much with people.

Stoller: Yeah, and I think younger generations going along with that are into the tech, but also into women’s sports. We see it in New York with the Liberty all the time. There’s so many—I live above the Barclays Center, and I see so many young people so excited about women’s sports.

Zucker: They have done an absolutely spectacular job with the Liberty. Yeah, I’ve had many conversations with Clara Tsai about what they’ve done, just amazing. But I think overall, when you look at the WNBA and what’s happening there, you look at women’s soccer and what’s happening there, I mean, clearly on the rise, very exciting in so many ways, gotten a lot of attention from sponsorship, I think, certainly from broadcast. So there’s huge opportunity there, and we’re very bullish on what that is. I think we’ve really created this facility as a place where we welcome everyone. And this past weekend, we just did an event with WWE and they’ve done an extraordinary job with women in their sport as well, and really highlighting that. So I think we’re going to see more of that.

Stoller: What do you think is the most valuable piece of advice that Steve has given you as you’ve taken your role, or anyone?

Zucker: Gosh, I mean…

Brady: …Steve and (unintelligible).

Stoller: Let’s go, yeah, both.

Zucker: I mean, you know, he has a way of making very complicated things simple, and I think he pushes for you to really be able to explain what your strategy is and where you’re headed in a very, very simple, authentic way. If you need a lot of buzzwords, or you need a big PowerPoint presentation to explain where you’re going, you probably don’t know it well enough to be successful, and that’s something that’s really helped. And I, after working with him for 10 years, when he keeps asking me questions about the same thing, he thinks I’m not yet there, and so it forces me to keep asking myself questions. And I think that’s been something that’s been really transformative for me.

Brady: In sports, you often hear the term billionaire owner, which gives the impression that the more money you spend, the better the franchise will be. I mean, what are some of the underappreciated elements, especially in a business that has got so many egos, you know, so many moving parts, what do you see as what maybe outsiders underappreciate as what distinguishes a winning franchise from one that is expensive but maybe not as successful.

Zucker: Yeah. I mean, look, all of these facilities, all of these sports teams are expensive. I mean, there’s, yes, it’s the table stakes. Yeah, there’s no way around it. You know, it’s funny, whenever you say billionaire owner, when I think about that, it like, I don’t know, it just kind of like, makes the hair on my arm stand up.

Brady: But it does too. Why is that?

Zucker: Because he doesn’t act that way. I mean, he, you know, still drives a Ford because his father worked at a Ford factory, and he’s got this sense of loyalty. I mean, a lot of his wealth is tied up in this Microsoft stock because he’s so loyal to that company. Keeps it, you know, he believes in it. And, you know, yes, he’s, like, been extremely fortunate, and so much so that he has an opportunity to buy an NBA team and to build a facility like the one that we have, but at the same time, like when you spend time and you’re around him, he is about as regular guy as it gets, and he worries about things that regular guys worry about. So I think that that’s important in staying connected, and it’s one of the things that helps franchises to succeed. I think when you get too far away from your fans and who they are and what they’re about and what motivates them, that’s when teams struggle.

Stoller: Looking toward the future, is there any either tech or new ideas that you are really excited about implementing,

Zucker: Well, like everyone else, I mean, I think that there’s an opportunity to grab AI by the horns and figure out how to harness it in a way that is really useful and that people love because it makes their life easier and better. And that’s always our focus for our tech: what does it do to improve the experience for people. So that’s something we’re really doubling down on. And look, I think, data as well, like when you look at companies these days that have really grown exponentially, they’ve done it because they really understand the data they have. Everybody’s collecting it, but how about knowing how to use it? And so those are two of the areas that I think we’re spending a lot of time on.

Brady: I’m guessing, in your job, you get a lot of fans that apply, right and passion. And we talk a lot—we’re at an operating leader event, talking about what you hire for and talent. I’d love to hear you talk a little bit about how you hire now, even from when you—if you could go back and talk to yourself younger in your career, what have you learned about the kinds of people you hire and how important is it to be a fan of the sport when you’re hiring?

Zucker: I don’t know that it is important to be a fan of the sport, which is a crazy thing to say, right? We hire people all the time who don’t necessarily have that attachment to basketball. Now, what’s interesting is I don’t know any of them who don’t develop it, because there is nothing quite like working for a team. I mean, it’s, you know, people use this team analogy all the time in business, but this is the real thing, and there’s wins and losses, and, you know, the way that you get attached to it. I know that at the end of every season, when we have people who are new, and it’s the first year that they’ve gotten to the point where, you know, it’s our last playoff game, and we’re done, and they come in and they’re so devastated. And I always get one or two of them who come to my office and say, “How do you deal with this? Does it get easier?” And the answer is no, because you’re that emotionally invested. So that’s what I look for. I look for people who are passionate. I look for people with the right attitude, because I think you can teach aptitude. Look for people who are smart, who are curious, who treat one another with respect. I think that’s really important, but these are all attributes that I think really matter. And then the skill sets, you know, people tend to be driven and successful in areas that they like. And, I look for people who have liked their previous jobs.

Stoller: Speaking of passion, I want to steal a question from both Diane and her digital twin, who I have been talking to all week and has asked me. And now I’m going to ask you, Gillian—what brings you joy? I hear you like kayaking.

Zucker: I do like kayaking. I like that very much. Mostly, I like it because I like to go on the search for like, sea lions or dolphins or other things. I really love that. I love wildlife, but I have two Miniature Schnauzer puppies. I love them. I spend a lot of time with my family. Of course, I love them. I love to cook. So there’s lots of things outside of work that bring me joy. But I love creative things, and I’m obsessed with puzzles. I love a puzzle.

Brady: You mean, like the jigsaw puzzles that you put—why is that? What is it about that?

Zucker: I just love them and I like one particular brand, I’ll give them a plug here. Liberty Puzzles. They’re these wooden puzzles, and they have these pieces, they call whimsy pieces. So they’re really like works of art, and they are so much fun.

Stoller: How many pieces can you do?

Zucker: No limit. I have many, many friends who know I’m obsessed with puzzles. So people give me all sorts of puzzles. You know, sort of the harder the better. Somebody gave me one that was all acrylic, so you could see through the entire thing, it was very difficult.

Brady: You know, it’s such a good metaphor for your job, actually, right? Being an operator of so many—so I want to ask, what do you love most about your job, and what would you change if you could?

Zucker: I love most how different every day is. I mean, you really tackle all kinds of really interesting things. Hard, hard problems. You can—the amount of creativity that you can have in a role like this is really, you know, sort of unbelievable, and more so with a chairman like Steve. So that’s my favorite part of it. I would say, if there’s something that I could change, you know, it would be to make sure that fans understand that there’s limitations, you know, within the industry. Like, oftentimes I’ll look at social media and I’ll see people saying, like, “Why don’t they just go get this guy?” Or “How come they don’t have this?” and they’ll be critical of either a player or the coaches or whatever. And that always like, obviously, I feel very protective of them, but it always bugs me, because I’m thinking, gosh, they don’t really understand how the salary cap works, what the rules are within the NBA. It’s not as simple as it seems.

Stoller: Do you read those posts a lot? Because I think we’re always told, don’t read your comments, don’t do anything like that. And how does it make you feel?

Zucker: Fortunately, in my role, a big part of the job is social listening. It’s important for me to know what people are saying and understand that so that we can target our messages in a way that helps them become more understanding of, you know, how we’re managing the team, the facility, etc. So, yeah, unfortunately, I do read them. Part of the job. Some of them can be really tough, and I think that people forget that there’s someone on the other side of this when they’re saying things like this. This is, you know, somebody’s son, somebody’s friend.

Brady: You mentioned the salary cap. And I do think that the sport evolves. I mean, give us a sense as to what’s around the corner. Doesn’t have to be like the actual game itself. But even just, we’ve seen these franchises become incredibly profitable, like the sports business is such a larger phenomenon now than it was even 10-20, years ago. What do you see happening next in terms of the evolution of the experience the game that excites you?

Zucker: What I’m most excited about with the NBA is the globalization of the game. So, you know, this is, you know, the truly, the only American based global sport. And I think that we have an opportunity to do something really powerful. And the NBA has seen it for many years. A lot of the work they’ve done with NBA Africa, what they’re thinking about with them, China, Europe, China, Australia. So when you really think about this opportunity, I mean, it is a game that is truly global, and there’s such an opportunity. And with the Olympics coming to Los Angeles. I think we have even more of an opportunity to see that grow pretty quickly.

Stoller: I was just about to bring up the Olympics, because I want to know about what your participation in that is going to look like.

Zucker: We are the home of basketball. I am so proud to say. It’s funny—when we originally had the beginning of the conversations with the Olympics, and they were coming to Los Angeles and they said, would you, you know, be interested in being a host building, and you don’t get to pick your sport? So my response was, absolutely, we would be 100% interested in any sport at all, so long as it’s basketball, and lo and behold, if we didn’t end up with it—but the facility really is built for a tournament event like this. The number of locker rooms we have, the facilities that we have, and I think it’ll be a spectacular experience, not just for the athletes, but also for all the people.

Stoller: Any new and exciting things you’re going to roll out for it that you could share with us?

Zucker: Oh yes, early days—there’ll be all kinds of interesting things that are being rolled out constantly. That’s the most amazing thing about this building, like I describe it in Steve Ballmer terms, which is the building itself is a piece of hardware, and the way that it operates inside is a piece of software, and it changes literally every day. So, you know, this entire summer, we’re working on, how do we make people’s jaws drop when they come in and they see this Halo board, which they saw all out of last year. But it does things that they could have never imagined last year. And you know, that’s our goal every single day, is to just be better than we were the day before.

Brady: You know, I’m curious what the challenge is, not just for your industry, but writ large. You’re in Los Angeles, which, of course, has experienced, you know, the trauma of wildfires. And you think about sustainability. I know that’s something Steve’s talked about. We’re in an environment, I think of USA (unintelligible) where there’s like, you know, people are very polarized, and there’s security concerns. What keeps you up at night? And, or maybe not even keeps you up at night, but talk about some of the challenges that you have to deal with because you’re so much at center of the community. And it’s, you know, there’s a lot of things swirling right now that make it hard to manage day to day operations, I’m sure.

Zucker: I think you just need to stay true to who you are as an organization, and we’ve done that. I mean, the environment is very important to Steve and his philanthropy. He does a lot of work in this space. We made a lot of decisions when we built Intuit Dome about how we were going to be thinking about our footprint and how we were going to minimize that as much as we possibly can. There’s a massive solar array on the roof of Intuit Dome. It can power an NBA finals game off grid. So, you know, we’ve done a lot of things. We have learned a tremendous amount in the past year about sorting trash and how to reduce waste. In a goal for a zero waste building, we ran extra water lines so that we can reuse and reclaim water, especially important in a place like Southern California. So, you know, a lot of the way that we think about things is, you know, to lead by example and showcase that to people. We’re not pushing it down anybody’s throat, but we’re saying, like, we think this is important for the world, and we’d love for you to participate. And I think that’s an opportunity that sports and music facilities have, because we encounter so many people. You can just help people to, you know, meet these things in unexpected places, and be introduced to it in a way that, you know, feels comfortable.

Stoller: Excellent. Well, Gillian, is there anything that we haven’t asked about that you wanted to share with us that you don’t get asked enough?

Zucker: Well, I’d love to talk to you about “The Wall” for just a minute, because it’s my absolute favorite part of Intuit Dome.

Brady: I saw you—when we met, I was actually in Madison Square Garden, so we did experience the Clippers win, but not in your home stadium.

Stoller: And explain “The Wall” for people who don’t know, because it’s really unique.

Zucker: I think this is one of the most special things about this building. So it is our—architecturally it is one end of the building. So the building is kind of built in a horseshoe, but on one side there’s a contiguous grandstand that starts in row one and goes all the way up to row 51. It’s 4,500 people, and we do not allow opposing team fans there. So you have to be cheering for the Clippers. You can’t wear an opposing team jersey and go there. You have to be a fan of our team. And in the middle of it is an area we call the swell, and it’s a standing supporter section. The season tickets there are $999 and we oversell it, so the seats get assigned as you arrive to the arena. So if you get there early, you’re down, but you have a job to do. Your job is to stand and cheer for our team the entire game, and there’s a group of team leaders there, about 15 of them, and they ask us for props, and we help them with various different things, but they are so funny and so clever and so effective. So the opposing team shot just 74% against “The Wall” this year, and that would be the lowest in the NBA if it were an NBA team. So a really effective way to help us have home court advantage, and also something that I think helps the rest of the arena just laugh and enjoy their time.

Brady: I love your cups that turn into like, what would you call the loud cup?

Zucker: The Loud Cups, those are great. We discovered one of the things about lines is that fountain drinks, filling fountain drinks, takes a very long time at a concession stand. So we moved all of our pour into the concourses, and people can just help themselves. You just buy a cup, and it’s bottomless. But then we thought, okay, well, we got to go a step further. So on one side you can drink out of the cup, and on the other side you can blow into it, and it sounds like a boat horn, because the Clippers are a show. We need one of these for the show.

Brady: I love it. Well, more more to come. And any favorite moments you want to share just a game that really—or something that just was a highlight for you as a fan?

Zucker: Yeah, I mean, I would say, even though I didn’t love the outcome of game seven in Denver, one of the things that was really exciting is because of the data that we collected—these members of the swell are most passionate fans. We knew a lot about them, and we gave them a fan score based on how many games they came to, what time they arrived, and how loudly they cheered at the game, because we knew all of that information. And then we reached out to them, and we took the top 150 of them, and we put them on a charter plane, and we flew them to Denver for this pivotal playoff game seven, which was a must-win. So as the team was finishing up their warm ups, an hour before the game started, you started seeing these red shirted clippers fans coming down the aisles and just watching the players and the look on their faces in that experience. And, you know, seeing this home court advantage so far from home, I think it was a really special moment. And, you know, it sort of allowed all of social media to join us in experiencing what’s so special about Intuit Dome.

Brady: Thanks for joining us. Gillian

Zucker: Thank you.

Brady: Leadership Next is produced and edited by Ceylan Ersoy.

Stoller: Our executive producer is Lydia Randall.

Brady: Our head of video and audio is Adam Banicki.

Stoller: Our theme is by Jason Snell.

Brady: Leadership Next is a production of Fortune Media. I’m Diane Brady.

Stoller: And I’m Kristin Stoller.

Brady: See you next time.

Leadership Next episodes are produced by Fortune‘s editorial team. The views and opinions expressed by podcasters and guests are solely their own and do not reflect the opinions of Deloitte or its personnel. Nor does Deloitte advocate or endorse any individuals or entities featured on the episodes.